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G4EBT  > TEAPOT   06.11.06 23:02l 165 Lines 6385 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : D83330G4EBT
Read: GUEST
Subj: Re: PA7KK  Aussie Sheik 2/2.
Path: DB0FHN<DB0RGB<DB0MRW<DK0WUE<GB7FCR
Sent: 061106/1830Z @:GB7FCR.#16.GBR.EU #:3813 [Blackpool] FBB-7.03a $:D83330G4E
From: G4EBT@GB7FCR.#16.GBR.EU
To  : TEAPOT@WW


Henry, PA7KK wrote:

Bob, VK6BE:- 

> >The IRA carried out executions and bombings; there are many more
> >instances and they are not confined to the Middle East or to Islamic
> >people.

Don't confuse the objectives of radical Islamic fundamentalists with the
aims of the IRA. They both use terror tactics, but to very different ends.

The IRA had an objective in mind: A united Ireland - a specific goal 
which I concur with, albeit I abhor terrorism, either by illegal
organisations or state sanctioned. 

During the Irish potato famine in the 1840s more than a million Irish
people died while Britain continued to take grain from the country. 
Britain ran Ireland on the basis of divide and rule. The IRA is a 
product of that.

The British government encouraged and armed the Orange Order and in 
the 1880s sections of the British ruling class deliberately encouraged
sectarianism in response to demands for home rule. They were terrified
that even limited home rule in Ireland would encourage other colonies to
demand independence.

Lord Randolph Churchill - father of Winston Churchill, argued to mobilise 
a Protestant movement to beat home rule, but the British ruling class
couldn't extinguish the desire for Irish independence, and the 1916 Easter
Rising captured that spirit. 

A proclamation of independence read out on the steps of the General Post
Office during the revolt declared "the right of the people of Ireland to
the ownership of Ireland".

The proclamation was signed in blood by the seven leaders of the Rising. 

Scores of others sacrificed their lives for it, hundreds more suffered
imprisonment and internment, thousands forfeited freedom, comfort and
careers over it. 

Here's a clip of the declaration:

"The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of
every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil
liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and
declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole
nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation
equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien
government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past".

End quote.

Note: No established religion - just a united independent Ireland. 

It wasn't to be. 

All seven were summarily executed by the British Government.

Big mistake. It made martyrs out of nobodies. 

It helps explain why many Americans don't see the IRA as terrorists, but 
as freedom fighters. Why else would they put out the red carpet on St
Patrick's Day for Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness, who they see as folk
heroes? 

34 million Americans reported Irish ancestry in the 2000 US Census. The
only self-reported "ethnic" group larger than Irish Americans is German
Americans. 

During and after the Irish potato famine of 1845-1849, millions of Irish
Catholics went to North America. Many arrived in Canada on disease-ridden
ships known as "coffin ships". Some remained there in Toronto and Ontario,
and became Irish-Canadians; others moved to the USA. 

Between 1820 and 1860, a third of all immigrants to the USA were Irish
Catholics, and in the 1840s they comprised nearly half of all immigrants.

Many went to the largest cities - Boston, New York, Chicago, San
Francisco, Hartford, Albany, Philadelphia and Detroit. New York City has
more people who claim Irish heritage than Dublin's entire population.

Henry replied:
 
> Yes I mentioned them too in my bull, you referred to. The IRA is/was 
> not an incident, but the world is not full with IRA's except...for 
> Islamic similar violent groups that attack western people, interests. 

Quite so.

Islamic fundamentalists have an entirely different goal - to spread Islam
and sharia law throughout the world. That's not to say that all Muslims
see Islam this way, but then everyday peaceable Muslims aren't the issue.

> but this was all connected to the Sheik's comments: the boys were not 
> guilty, the girl was. That is  an attack on the values, the Australian 
> nation stand for. I have no respect for such remarks from Islamic
leaders 
> wherever they penetrated, trying to impose there medieval backward
values.

Exactly so.

> With Asians in Holland we have no problems in general.

Same in the UK - we mustn't confuse race with religion.

The issue in the UK (and judging from the Sheik's words, in Oz too it
seems), is that Islamic Imams don't understand the language or culture, 
and see their goal as "Islamising modernity" - not "modernising Islam" 
to sit alongside other religions.

IMHO, the only ones who should be allowed to preach are those who've been
born in the country, understand and share its values, speak the language
and have been carefully vetted.

> >Our problems in Australia with violent conduct is probably no worse 
> >than anywhere else and Islamics are not the offenders in most cases.

I should think not. 

Asians (not all of them Muslims) are only 7% of Australia's population.

In Britain, as to conventional violent crime, black people in London 
are four times more likely to be murder victims than white, and those
responsible for the murders are also far more likely to be black. In
proprtion to London's po[pulation, homicide suspects are 12 times 
more likely to be black than white. 

The findings are in a report presented by Sir Ian Blair, the Commissioner
of the Metropolitan Police. (Can't make that one "diversity friendly").

Bob:

>You don't have the whole story and how could you since you depend on
>reports from news sources who often leave out the positives. 

What information do you have which the rest of us aren't privvy to?

>Negatives sell papers.

Can there be anything positive about what the top Cleric had to say?

Henry:

>The Sheik is a leader, so he must have shared his ideas with his
>supporters. They did not remove him before, while they must have 
>known about his reprehensible way of thinking.

Correct. He's the most senior Muslim Cleric in Australia, and was
addressing a Ramadan service to a congregation of 500 Muslims. 
Hardly a lunatic fringe meeting.

It's worth reading what Barry, VK2AAB, had to say about it.

73 - David, G4EBT @ GB7FCR

Message timed: 18:12 on 2006-Nov-06
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