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To  : APRDIG@WW

Subject: Re: [Possible Spam]Re: What do those packets mean?
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:38:32 -0400
X-Message-Number: 20

On 6/11/04 at 6:20 AM Spider <spider@rivcom.net> sent:

>The Status ports on the servers has some pretty good data.
>For example   http://firenet.us:14580

I think you meant

http://firenet.us:14501

This give total packet processed since the program started up, but it does
not give day by day, and does not breakdown by type of packet. It is
certainly useful for looking at the APRS stream as a whole, but a long term
archive of packet types and rates would be useful in other ways.

>Shows it's been looking at data for ~10 days and has processed  ~18.8
>million packets.  Out of that, ~1.1 million dupes!

Well, the dup count depends mostly on how the hub is configured. For
example, findU, who's goal is to make sure it gets all the data with no
dropouts, is connected read-only to the 4 core hubs and to aprswest, where
most of the CW data enters the system. Because of this configuration, it
processes four dups for every packet:

http://findu.com:14501/

it has been up nearly 24 days, with 30 million packets and 116 million
dupes.

firenet seems to have three outgoing connections, it is quite possible
there are dupes coming in through those, or from clients connected to more
thn one server, I do not know enough about the configuration of firenet to
comment on the specifics.

Dupes really don't matter much, as findU shows, javAPRSSrvr (even the
anient version findU runs) is able to handle the dupes without any problem.

Steve K4HG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: APRS in the field.  Big step forward...
From: "Brian  Riley (maillist)" <n1bq_list@wulfden.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:39:58 -0400
X-Message-Number: 21

My family we have 2 THD7A(G)s and three TMD700As,  one each in my truck
(N1BQ-8), my wife's Explorer (W1SLR-8), and my father-in-laws station wagon
(KB1GXE-8) I am thinking about getting another for the ham shack. I also
have a Tiny Trak2 and two Opentrackers.

On 6/11/04 12:24 AM, "Chris Rose" <kb8uih@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I know five people that at least have one Kenwood D700 or THD7 or both, me
>included.  For what they can do, nothing else is available.  No, they won't
>wash my car.  But they aren't supposed to be able to wash my car, either.
> 
>73,
>Chris
>KB8UIH

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Kenwood APRS radio...
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <kf4otn@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:41:33 -0400
X-Message-Number: 22

Curt and all...

I saw the PGV METAR station on RF this morning.  The D700A treats it as an
object and will NOT show the weather information contained within.  (Glad I
have my laptop!!!)

73s,
Eric KF4OTN
kf4otn@amsat.org

-----Original Message-----
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Robert Bruninga wrote:

>>>>"Eric H. Christensen" 6/9/04 8:46:55 PM >>>
>>The Kenwood can't decode the Peet Brothers packets, either...
>
>But No amount of software can keep up with the plethoria
>of WX stations interfaces.  That is why APRS1.0 has only
>ONE WX format (2 variants).  So that software could be written ONCE
>and it would always receive all weather. I know thta make it boring
>for programmers, but it is that kind of forsight by the APRS-WG that
>makes APRS work.

Do the Kenwoods decode weather out of object/item packets, like those
packets that are flying across firenet?  That is allowed by the spec, but I
know some of the clients had to be tweaked to parse the weather info out of
them.  Can somebody check this if the answer isn't known already?

--
Curt, WE7U			         http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:    A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES
revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: XASTIR - Mac OSX - Serial Ports ?????
From: "Brian  Riley (maillist)" <n1bq_list@wulfden.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:49:33 -0400
X-Message-Number: 23

That is what I did. I have the single adapter the USA19QW designation ...
But I will try it again ... I definitely want to get APRS of some kind
running to a TNC on my 12" PB without going to VirtualPC!!!!!
(aaarrrgghhh!!!!)

On 6/11/04 2:11 AM, "Greg Noneman" <greg@clubnet.net> wrote:
 
>Here's what I did:
> 
>1)  With the USB to serial adapter connected, I used the terminal to
>get a listing of devices (/dev directory).  In my case I had the two
>devices listed
> 
>cu.USA28X181P1.1
>cu.USA28X181P2.2
> 
>These correspond to the two serial ports on the adapter.
> 
>2)  Once the two device ports have been identified, run XASTIR and from
>the Interface pull-down, create a new serial TNC interface.  In the TNC
>port window enter the appropriate device as identified from the
>terminal.  Specify the full path.  In my case the entry is:
> 
>/dev/cu.USA28X181P1.1 (for TNC connection to port 1 of the serial
>adapter)
> 
>3)  Configure the other serial port parameters, define UnProto paths
>and TNC configuration files (if necessary) and select OK.
> 
>4)  Again from the Interface pull-down, select the Start/Stop option
>and start the newly defined device.  The window should indicate that
>the device is UP and data should begin to flow from the TNC.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: question about possession of an object.
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:51:52 -0400
X-Message-Number: 24

On 6/11/04 at 6:08 AM Spider <spider@rivcom.net> sent:

>But the question is what do you do with them.....if they are owned by
>someone else?  I would think with the stuff you do, nobody else needs
>to be plotting anything.  Maybe some educational posts should appear
>on the various sigs about what plotting you do there?

There usually is stuff posted on the sig when a hurricane is out there. The
problem is that Dale's automatic posts do not get IGated to some RF nets,
and so users post them manually. Dale switched to a non-obvious name (not
just the storm name) so that others could not grab his objects by accident,
but still there will inevitably be a ton of old posits being plotted.

I think some sort of object that cannot be grabbed would be a good idea in
some circumstances, but I can't think of a way to come up with one.

You could either define a new format, or better extend the exiting format,
suppose something in the comment field like !ng! (ng for no grab). When a
compliant client program heard this, it would not replace this position
with another object report without the !ng!. Problem is, anyone could add
the !ng!, and commandeer the object. Of course, a compliant client could
also flash all sorts of warnings, or require some other sort of deliberate
user action to turn on !ng!. Do you think something like that would satisfy
the NWS?

Steve K4HG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re:  Re: What do those packets mean?
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:17:10 -0400
X-Message-Number: 25

On 6/11/04 at 8:25 AM william seffens <wseffens@comcast.net> sent:

>By the way, the internet stream has been somewhat constant in daily size
>for two years at 100K bytes.

I presume that is a typo, otherwise you are only getting a small part of
the stream, and even if you did mean 100M/day, the number seems low to me.
I do not have a direct measure of the stream, but I can say over the last
60 days, findU has deposited raw packets at a rate over 120M bytes a day.

How are you connected to the APRS IS, and are you doing any filtering?

Steve K4HG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: AX.25 Destination Address
From: "Keith - VE7GDH" <ve7gdh@rac.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:12:27 -0700
X-Message-Number: 26

Is there an updated list of the AX.25 Destination Addresses anywhere online?

I was looking at the AX.25 Destination Address in the APRS 1.0.1 spec. I'm
sure more have been added to the list since the spec was made available. Is
there an updated list anywhere online? What I was really interested in is
telling at a glance if a station is capable of receiving an APRS message.
e.g. APT310 seems to be a TinyTrack 3.

73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: AX.25 Destination Address
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:26:17 -0400
X-Message-Number: 27

On 6/11/04 at 8:12 AM Keith - VE7GDH <ve7gdh@rac.ca> sent:

>Is there an updated list of the AX.25 Destination Addresses anywhere online?

Part of Bob's errata pages:

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs/tocalls.txt

Steve K4HG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What do those packets mean?
From: "william seffens" <wseffens@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:40:17
X-Message-Number: 28

On 6/11/04 at 8:25 AM william seffens <wseffens@comcast.net> sent:

>>By the way, the internet stream has been somewhat constant in daily size
>>for two years at 100K bytes.

>Steve K4HG wrote:
>I presume that is a typo, otherwise you are only getting a small part of
>the stream, and even if you did mean 100M/day, the number seems low to
>me. I do not have a direct measure of the stream, but I can say over
>the last 60 days, findU has deposited raw packets at a rate over 120M 
>bytes a day.
>How are you connected to the APRS IS, and are you doing any filtering?
>Steve K4HG

Your right, it should be a M, not K.  Two years ago it was slightly less 
than 90M, now it is 110M/day.  I am using AFilter without filtering and 
with time header. Two rotating connections to 1,2,3 and 4th aprs.net:23.

This would be a great (passive) way to study RF propagation like PropNet
(which is an active method), but without PropNet's non-kenwood formatted 
packets.  I was active in PropNet till i could not read my packets with
the D7 as a check. Sounds like a problem expressed in the other major 
thread on this sig recently.

Wm Seffens
kg4eyo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What do those packets mean?
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:14:19 -0400
X-Message-Number: 29

On 6/11/04 at 10:40 AM william seffens <wseffens@comcast.net> sent:

>This would be a great (passive) way to study RF propagation like PropNet
>(which is an active method), but without PropNet's non-kenwood formatted
>packets.  I was active in PropNet till i could not read my packets with
>the D7 as a check. Sounds like a problem expressed in the other major
>thread on this sig recently.

Actually, the APRS IS isn't a good way to do propnet style stuff, the
suggestion comes up often enough I touch on this on the faq at findu.com.
The APRS IS was designed to transport data, not propagation info, in order
to decrease bandwidth duplicates are removed at every step of the way.
Some, but not all IGates filter dupes before forwarding them to a hub, and
each hub filters out the dupes. The filtering is based on the data portion,
not upon the path, and it is the path which is of interest for this
application.

Which path get to the APRS IS cannot be predicted without precise knowledge
of the Internet System at that precise time...who is connected where and
what internet propagation delays are. Furthermore, different versions of
the packet may be seen at different points on the APRS IS. Thinking about
it is another of those things that will give you migranes!

Now, if there were a small number of hubs that people connected to, and if
each ran a port that did not filter (I think javAPRSSrvr has this
capability, if not it has a dupes port which could be combined with the
filtered stream to get it all)) then gathering all this data, and filtering
the resulting dupes on the whole packet, rather than just the data portion,
would not be too difficult, but the volume would still be several times the
dup-filtered APRS IS stream. However, the reality is much worse...besides
the 4 core hubs and 4 second tier hubs, which handle the majority of
conencts, there are many more hubs out there, and most of those run aprsd
which last I heard did not offer undup-checked ports. Even you you could,
the volume would be huge.

So the APRS IS is not the right tool for the job, this was a big part of
why PropNet was unable to get a critical mass, it needed its own
infrastructure, and Ev just couldn't get enough people interested, which
was too bad, it was a good idea.

Steve K4HG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: JAVA Script for Compressed Packets
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <kf4otn@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:19:13 -0400
X-Message-Number: 30

I'm working on a project for myself but need a little help.  Can someone
that has it already written the code for creating compressed packets in JAVA
please send the source code to me?  I am new to JAVA programming but am
trying to come up with a calculator to use locally to create Compressed
packets.  If you don't want to release the source code I'd appreciate some
mentoring in writing this code.

Please respond privately.  Thanks!

73s,
Eric KF4OTN
kf4otn@amsat.org
kf4otn@w4ral.#rtp.nc.usa.noam

ARRL Member
AMSAT Member: 35360
TAPR Member: 8869
Support your Hobby!  Join a club.

All contact logs are uploaded to the ARRL LoTW and eQSL.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: JAVA Script for Compressed Packets
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:25:31 -0500
X-Message-Number: 31

I don't know how current it is, but try
http://www.aprs-is.net/javAPRS/comppreproc.htm  I am responding publicly
as this code has been available for a long time and was posted over a
year ago on the SIG.  I thought it might be useful to others.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
mailto:pete@ae5pl.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: JAVA Script for Compressed Packets
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <kf4otn@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:32:24 -0400
X-Message-Number: 32

Pete,
Thanks a bunch!  I'm going to review this to learn more!!!

73s,
Eric KF4OTN
kf4otn@amsat.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Compressed Positions -was-
From: David Rush <david@davidarush.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:00:27 -0600
X-Message-Number: 33

I think you mean "deprecate".

David, ky7dr

KC2MMi wrote:

>Bob-
>The buzzword that I have been seeing in computer manuals is "decrement".
>...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Opentrack or whatever
From: Curt Mills <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:55:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 34

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, James Smith wrote:

>on a second note I could give a rats a__ less about seeing
>things down to the centimeter.

I don't think anyone cares about that (cm) right _now_.  I need resolution
down to a foot or two for some SAR work, mostly for positioning
objects/items at base, not for GPS positioning in the field.  If I had more
accurate positioning available in the field though, I'd sure be able to use
it.

The cm thing was something that fit nicely into a certain number of bytes.
It could have just as easily been multiplied/divided by another factor by
adding/deleting a byte.  It's just what fit well.

It's also a nice way to plan for increased resolution of GPS units (or some
other type of positioning) in the future, without having to redesign the
format periodically to extend the resolution.  You know, kind of like we
lost SA and gained WAAS since APRS protocol was initially developed.  Our
positioning got rather a lot better since then.  There's no reason to think
that technology won't keep marching on and making things better in the
future.


>A few just want to cause problems for the
>rest of us,  now the person who developed opentrack should be
>communicating with Bob and NOT needing other people jumping IN and
>adding their two cents to it please keep your two cents to yourself...

So you think all of this is about OpenTrac?  You might want to go back and
read a few of the threads again.  Very little of it was directly related to OT.


>You will make allot of people and inboxes happier. I stand behind Bob,
>all the other authors in their opinions and I know I'm not alone in that
>feeling....

Dude... I _am_ one of the other authors.  At least, I'm one of a team of
authors (perhaps the busiest of the team?) that is developing the Xastir
APRS client.  I'm also on the SmartPalm APRS client team.  I created
aprsd.pl plus a bunch of monitoring scripts in Perl.  I also contribute a
few thousand objects regularly to the firenet project, including quakes,
river gages, and some fire objects.  I suppose my opinion doesn't count
because I'm not one of the original few that licensed the name APRS from
Bob?

I've recognized a good number of the participants as the movers and shakers
of the APRS world, as well as the OpenTrac world.  There are several APRS
authors besides Bob/Steve participating in these threads, but perhaps the
names are not as familiar to you.


>Change is good,

Yes.  That's what most of us are saying, and most of the e-mails on here
were not about OpenTrac at all, but about the change process (or lack of
it) and about problems in the APRS spec that have not (and so far will not)
be rectified.  These threads were multiple years in the making, and many
issues brought up have been proposed before, way before OpenTrac was a
gleam in Scott's eye.


>Please keep your flaming e-mails to yourself also....

I have not flamed anyone to this point, and have not gotten personal or
assigned labels in any of my replies that I can recall (but I do save them
all so I can go back and check if necessary!).  I have had some e-mails
directed at me that were a bit iffy though.  A couple that I received
through personal e-mail I won't respond to until the person calms down a
little and gets back to technical issues.

All of us are really interested in the technical issues.  It's too bad all
of this emotional baggage has to accompany it, else we'd be able to
accomplish something.

I again state:  I am supporting both APRS and OpenTrac protocols at this
point.  I'm getting a bit tired though of OpenTrac taking the blame for all
these threads, as it just ain't so.  The balloon running the dual-protocols
was just the trigger which got a lot of these threads started, that's about
the only connection I can make.

-- 
Curt, WE7U.				archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Compressed Positions
From: Curt Mills <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:27:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 35

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Bill Herrmann wrote:

>At 12:16 PM 6/10/2004 -0700, Curt, WE7U wrote:
>>Bob> 3)  Having precision to 1 foot without Datum is pointless
>>
>>True.  So what.  It's not a problem with Base-91 Compressed posits
>>per se, just that the additional datum info must be added if it is
>>needed in a particular situation.  I proposed adding datum info to
>>the packet years ago, and it is only recently being championed by
>>you.  If we had done it years ago it'd probably be implemented in
>>more clients by now and it wouldn't be a problem currently.
>
>I almost hate to point this out, but my understanding is that this is one
>of the proposed benefits of OpenTrac. It allows for adding information to
>the same packet without breaking all the existing implementations.

Correct!  I'm trying to work on improving both protocols.  If any more
positioning protocols show up that look interesting/worth pursuing, I'll
probably investigate them as well.

-- 
Curt, WE7U.				archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Possible Spam]Re: What do those packets mean?
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:25:13 -0700
X-Message-Number: 36

From: "Steve Dimse" <k4hg@tapr.org>

On 6/11/04 at 6:20 AM Spider <spider@rivcom.net> sent:

>The Status ports on the servers has some pretty good data.
>For example   http://firenet.us:14580

I think you meant

http://firenet.us:14501

Oops!  You're right, sorry.

firenet seems to have three outgoing connections, it is quite possible
there are dupes coming in through those, or from clients connected to more
thn one server, I do not know enough about the configuration of firenet to
comment on the specifics.

Dupes really don't matter much, as findU shows, javAPRSSrvr (even the anient
version findU runs) is able to handle the dupes without any problem.

Agreed, FireNet at this time is pretty much the same as the Tier 2 servers
with some port exceptions.  Just another subnet off the core. I like to
keeping an eye on dupes as a percentage to the total to determine if they
increase or not.....other than that they dont cause much concern. Typically
about 6%.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: question about possession of an object.
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:32:43 -0700
X-Message-Number: 37

----- Original Messageorg>

>>>The Status ports on the servers has some pretty good data.
>>>For example   http://firenet.us:14580
>>
>>I think you meant
>>
>>http://firenet.us:14501
>>
>>Oops!  You're right, sorry.
>
>Has anybody set up a MRTG plot on APRS-IS?  On Firenet?
>
>Bill

Well, maybe!  I do not own the router as the core Firenet server is right at
the ISP hooked to the Enet.  What type of traffic would you be looking for?

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Possible Spam]Re: What do those packets mean?
From: "Bill Vodall" <wa7nwp@jnos.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:04:24 -0700
X-Message-Number: 41

>>Has anybody set up a MRTG plot on APRS-IS?  On Firenet?
>>
>>Bill
>
>Well, maybe!  I do not own the router as the core Firenet server is right at
>the ISP hooked to the Enet.  What type of traffic would you be looking for?

Just count the packets presented.  That would give a real chart of data
flow by day/week/month/year.   Real data is always useful in these
discussions.

Bill

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Lines of code
From: Curt Mills <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:02:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 42

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Curt, WE7U wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Robert Bruninga wrote:
>
>>>By "dabble", Bob means 322,218 lines of code...  According
>>>to the utility "wc" which just counted them for me.
>
>>Bob:  Thanks!  (I once guessed the lines of code near 30k lines
>>Bob:  of code.  Could there be a typo in your number above?

Oops.  Boo-boo!  I usually run "wc -l" which gives me lines.  I must have
just run "wc", which gives me bytes/words/lines, and I read the wrong
number.

The correct number for AprsDOS is 9431 lines, including white space and
comments.  That's more in line with what I would expect!  Sorry about the
incorrect number the first time around.

My original point was that Bob was more than just a user... He has done
rather a lot of programming too.  The actual numbers involved weren't all
that pertinent to making that point.

-- 
Curt, WE7U.				archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Lines of code
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:28:30 -0400
X-Message-Number: 43

Well, it was a programmer that created APRS, now the "programmers" are
being called names for wanting to change it.

Ironic?

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: JAVA Script for Compressed Packets
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:31:11 -0500
X-Message-Number: 44

I have updated that page and the Mic-E page to reflect the current
implementation in javAPRS.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
mailto:pete@ae5pl.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: question about possession of an object.
From: Wes Johnston <wes@johnston.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:57:46 -0400
X-Message-Number: 45

What is the difference between an object and an item?

At 02:32 PM 6/11/2004, Spider wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Dimse" <k4hg@tapr.org>

>He had created some objects that I could take.  Then we tested Items.  I
>could not take his items.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Possible Spam]Re: question about possession of an object.
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:21:45 -0700
X-Message-Number: 46

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wes Johnston" <wes@johnston.net>

>What is the difference between an object and an item?

Chapter 11, page 57 and 58 of the spec.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: ping
From: Wes Johnston <wes@johnston.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:39:44 -0400
X-Message-Number: 47

kinda dead here!  perhaps the storm has stopped.
Wes

----------------------------------------------------------------------




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