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To  : APRDIG@WW

Subject: RE: Trains, planes and APRS autom obiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <kf4otn@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:31:57 -0400
X-Message-Number: 73

Danny,
I'm not going to argue this anymore. I have done a heck of a lot of
networks on both wired and wireless systems using commercial and amateur
gear. I have studied this stuff before. I have been involved in both the
planning and development of communications plans.

I am not saying do away with the APRS-IS. BUT what I am saying is that we
can benefit from an RF backbone system that could link various digipeaters
together within a region to solidify the regional networks. It would save
on bandwidth and would be better for distributing information across a large
area without having every digi send that information out (like weather
bulletins).

You say that the APRS-IS is the only way, I'm telling you that there is a
fourteen day gap in weather data from my station because of the internet
failure, not digi failure, internet failure. I'm saying that I've seen the
same thing for the past five or more years during Hurricane Season. I'm
also saying that if my friend's I-Gate goes down right now, the nearest one
is at least 120 miles away and that is through a very thick fog of packets
being bounced around the Triangle right now.

I see a problem with relying on the internet because I have seen the
problems that occur when you rely on it (did I mention the Ice Storms that
took a lot of the networks down near RDU a few years ago???). I agree with
you that it is a good thing. Heck, I have time and money invested in
APRS-IS infrastructure right now (not available for use at this time,
though). But I don't rely on the IS for ultimate packet delivery. Having
to bounce a packet through three or more digipeaters isn't very reliable.
Yeah, you can do it, but you can't always do it.

73s,
Eric KF4OTN
kf4otn@amsat.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Drew Baxter <droobie@maine.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:44:09 -0400
X-Message-Number: 74

At 06:26 PM 6/15/2004, Danny wrote:
>I find it hard to believe that no one in your area runs a home APRS station.

Sure some do, but they're not using their home computer or have internet 
access to it in most cases. They treat the radio and the Internet as
separate entities.. Like I said, it isn't Amateur Internet.

>Well, good luck building an amateur network with the same redundancy as 
>the internet.

Didn't say that. I said that this is Amateur Radio.

>Well, go for it. If and when you find the equipment to build that pipe,
>let me know. Id rather plan to put myself a few hops from the internet
>over a low speed link than to try and build a whole new high speed network 
>to "backup" what we have with the internet. Again, we would need to do
>this with as much redundancy as the internet, and make sure that "fat 
>pipe" doesnt get overloaded with garbage so it can actually be used in an 
>emergency.

Actually you could transvert 2.4ghz hardware down to 220mhz if we were 
allowed to do spread spectrum down that far.. That's just one of many 
possibilities.

Danny, you don't need a radio license to go use the Internet, if that's 
really what you want to do. The IS is not a backbone, it's a supplement to
the APRS network. The APRS Network is meant to provide LOCAL traffic and
resources. Bob has said this a ton of times. I'm suggesting we have a
high speed backbone for the LOCAL network.

--Droo, K1XVM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS
radio
From: Drew Baxter <droobie@maine.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:51:26 -0400
X-Message-Number: 75

At 06:39 PM 6/15/2004, Danny wrote:
>Yes, but I am not close minded enough to put all my eggs into one 
>basket. As an engineer and amateur radio operator, I use all the
>resources available to me.

Again you're not listening to what I'm saying.. I'm saying that there
should be LOCAL high speed packet backbone for MULTI-USE. This could be
used for a TON of things because there'd be the bandwidth there to allow 
it.. If people wanted to do Videoconference or packet ATV, APRS backbone, 
TCP-IP, etc. it would encompass all of these things across a few 
frequencies in an unused band. This would be good for EVERYONE, not just
specifically APRS.

>DB> The IS isn't meant to replace RF, it's meant as a means to 
>supplement. I'm
>DB> proposing we have a localized high speed packet network in hopes of
>DB> fulfilling the data needs of now and new technology in the future. The
>DB> APRS-IS is critical to the APRS network, and shouldn't change. However, I
>DB> try not to rely on the Internet because my friend 90 miles away might not
>DB> get me on Internet but he could with the right terrestrial network on RF.
>
>and 90 miles away he can set up your emergency IGATE and you now have 
>access to APRS-IS and the WORLD.

We had a switching station in Augusta Maine catch on fire and took out 
Internet from Augusta (90 miles south by the road) to Bangor (where I 
am). No Internet for either of us. It's a nice dream though in your world
where these things don't happen. There's only a few pieces of fiber coming
up and several copper connections. They all more or less go through the
same place.

>APRS-IS is what you make of it. APRS-IS carries local traffic just as it
>does traffic from Australia.

But that APRS-IS does not gate local traffic to/from our local network!.

>Why does it matter whether the pipe is RF or internet? With the internet
>you have MUCH more bandwidth that ALREADY exists and that is accessible to 
>anyone with a dialup internet connection.

Because Amateur Radio works even when the Internet does not... Again, this 
is Amateur Radio, not Amateur Internet. The IS not supposed to be the
focus for LOCAL resources and LOCAL traffic.

>No Droo.. I see the internet as a potential extension of Amateur Radio... 
>Just like Echolink is, or Telnet DX Clusters, etc.
>
>Like I said, I use what technologies are available to me. In an emergency, 
>who gives a damn if your network is 100% RF or not.. If part of your 
>traffic is carried on the internet and completed its mission, then the JOB 
>WAS DONE!

I care about the fact that 100% is guaranteed if you rely on the RF Network 
as well as have the existing IS network. We have a need to consider a high
speed packet backbone to encompass MANY facets of digital technology on a 
local scale. The advantages are limited by imagination in what I'm
proposing.

I'm not defining what people SHOULD do here, I'm defining a single 
multi-use digital backbone. What people do with it is their issue.

Again, I'm not proposing removing the IS.. I am suggesting that there be a 
high speed packet network to help spark interest and new innovation in 
amateur radio.

Think outside the box.

--Droo, K1XVM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <kf4otn@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:55:18 -0400
X-Message-Number: 76

So Danny,
You aren't putting all your eggs in one basket??? So if a major fiber line
is cut and all data flowing from your area stops (and by area I mean
hundreds of square miles) you are just going to bump all of your stations up
to WIDE7-7 and hope to get into an I-Gate and hope that the traffic can find
its' way back to you... right? Hmmm, they can't cut my RF Backbone...
Hmmm, I would typically have equipment that I can put in as a backup incase
of a failure... Hmmm, I wouldn't have to wait for someone else to fix my
problems... Hmmm, I wouldn't be asking anyone to tie up their phone line
for the internet...

Funny to say this, but when Nextel came out with their special "radios" for
law enforcement (and public safety) they made it very clear that their
product should NOT be used as a primary means for their officers to talk.
Why? Because it is better that they handle their own communications network
incase Nextel goes down and they don't have the man power to get it back up.
So why use Nextel??? Because it is a backup just like the APRS-IS. But
hey, I've only been in emergency services for ten years, you do what you
want with your area... Hope you live where there aren't any disasters or
folks digging around with backhoes... :D

73s,
Eric KF4OTN
kf4otn@amsat.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Trains, planes and APRS autom obiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:36:43 -0400
X-Message-Number: 77

EHC> Danny,
EHC> I'm not going to argue this anymore. I have done a heck of a lot of
EHC> networks on both wired and wireless systems using commercial and amateur
EHC> gear. I have studied this stuff before. I have been involved in both the
EHC> planning and development of communications plans.

Me too, which is why I dont understand your logic here.

EHC> You say that the APRS-IS is the only way, I'm telling you that there is a
EHC> fourteen day gap in weather data from my station because of the internet
EHC> failure, not digi failure, internet failure. I'm saying that I've seen the
EHC> same thing for the past five or more years during Hurricane Season. I'm
EHC> also saying that if my friend's I-Gate goes down right now, the nearest one
EHC> is at least 120 miles away and that is through a very thick fog of packets
EHC> being bounced around the Triangle right now.

Nope. I didnt say APRS-IS was the only way. I said it's a solid high speed
backbone that already exists.

EHC> I see a problem with relying on the internet because I have seen the
EHC> problems that occur when you rely on it (did I mention the Ice Storms that
EHC> took a lot of the networks down near RDU a few years ago???). I agree with
EHC> you that it is a good thing. Heck, I have time and money invested in
EHC> APRS-IS infrastructure right now (not available for use at this time,
EHC> though). But I don't rely on the IS for ultimate packet delivery. Having
EHC> to bounce a packet through three or more digipeaters isn't very reliable.
EHC> Yeah, you can do it, but you can't always do it.

Well, I am sorry that coming up with creative ways to get connected to our
worldwide APRS backbone is such a problem. I have time and money invested
too right now, which is why I would like to USE it, instead of looking for
ways for it not to work during a time of need.

I still havent seen evidence that the APRS backbone will work when the
internet doesnt. If these hurricanes and ice storms took out SO Much of
your infrastructure, how do you know APRS will survive AT ALL.

Really when it comes down to it, we can doom and gloom this conversation
forever.

If you want emergency comms, your REAL options are:

1. Portable Satellite Terminals
2. HF Radio, running on batteries
3. 2 meters, non-repeated

Everything else is too fragile according to the set of circumstances you
laid out.

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:43:36 -0400
X-Message-Number: 78

>>I find it hard to believe that no one in your area runs a home APRS station.

DB> Sure some do, but they're not using their home computer or have internet
DB> access to it in most cases. They treat the radio and the Internet as
DB> separate entities.. Like I said, it isn't Amateur Internet.

So, no one uses UI-View or WinAPRS connected to APRS-IS? Have you ever been
on APRS-IS before? Really?

DB> Danny, you don't need a radio license to go use the Internet, if that's
DB> really what you want to do. The IS is not a backbone, it's a supplement to
DB> the APRS network. The APRS Network is meant to provide LOCAL traffic and
DB> resources. Bob has said this a ton of times. I'm suggesting we have a
DB> high speed backbone for the LOCAL network.

Please dont tell me what I can and cant do with my radio license. I am
advocating a little more use of a wonderful resource we have that happens
to connect RF and the internet. Most would agree that packer radio and the
internet are a great marriage.. sorry you dont.

I still dont understand why you need a backbone for LOCAL APRS coverage.
What are you backboning to????? A LOCAL backbone is a DIGI!

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:50:39 -0400
X-Message-Number: 79

Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 7:55:18 PM, you wrote:

EHC> So Danny,
EHC> You aren't putting all your eggs in one basket??? So if a major fiber line
EHC> is cut and all data flowing from your area stops (and by area I mean
EHC> hundreds of square miles) you are just going to bump all of your stations
upEHC> to WIDE7-7 and hope to get into an I-Gate and hope that the traffic can
find
EHC> its' way back to you... right? Hmmm, they can't cut my RF Backbone...
EHC> Hmmm, I would typically have equipment that I can put in as a backup incase
EHC> of a failure... Hmmm, I wouldn't have to wait for someone else to fix my
EHC> problems... Hmmm, I wouldn't be asking anyone to tie up their phone line
EHC> for the internet...

Again, this is "My disaster is better than yours".

My disaster just took out all your digis which were colocated with your
backbones.. Now what?

EHC> Funny to say this, but when Nextel came out with their special "radios" for
EHC> law enforcement (and public safety) they made it very clear that their
EHC> product should NOT be used as a primary means for their officers to talk.
EHC> Why? Because it is better that they handle their own communications network
EHC> incase Nextel goes down and they don't have the man power to get it back
up.EHC> So why use Nextel??? Because it is a backup just like the APRS-IS. But
EHC> hey, I've only been in emergency services for ten years, you do what you
EHC> want with your area... Hope you live where there aren't any disasters or
EHC> folks digging around with backhoes... :D

Ive been in emergency communications for 12 years, been in broadcasting for
12 years, and yadda, yadda, yadda.. So?

The same can also be said of any trunking system.. Its doesnt get more
fragile than that.. One of your famous "Fiber cuts" happens or you lose 1
microwave site, and bam, you just lost a third or a quarter or some
percentage of your system. So why do we use it? Same reason my fire
department has ONE repeater site. If you expected everything to go down all
the time, you would end up in a basement with flashlights all your lives.

Like I said, nothing wrong with planning disasters, but this thread is
turning into paranoia and lots of what ifs.

What if someone sets off a nuclear bomb and kills everyone.. does it matter
if the digis are 1200 baud?

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Drew Baxter <droobie@maine.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:53:34 -0400
X-Message-Number: 80

At 10:43 PM 6/15/2004, Danny wrote:
>So, no one uses UI-View or WinAPRS connected to APRS-IS? Have you ever
>been on APRS-IS before? Really?

If they do, they cannot gate traffic out to the RF. You cannot originate
traffic on the IS and gate to the RF.

>Please dont tell me what I can and cant do with my radio license. I am
>advocating a little more use of a wonderful resource we have that happens 
>to connect RF and the internet. Most would agree that packer radio and
>the internet are a great marriage.. sorry you dont.

As far as I know - Bob has defined the IS as a means to connect LOCAL 
traffic to NON-LOCAL traffic and that APRS as a radio infrastructure is 
meant to be LOCAL. This means that there should be a means for
infrastructure to connect all of the LOCAL content together. Go look at
the surface area of Maine, it's about 4 NJ's worth and 1 Million people 
from end to end. If we had a 220mhz high speed packet backbone, we could
have an APRS infrastructure in Fort Kent (LOCAL) that would gate to a
REGIONAL (State-wide) APRS network along with ATV and even low-rate TCP-IP 
comms. Unlike wherever you are, we can lose power, phone, and cable (where
available) for DAYS or in the case of the 1998 ice storm, week or better.

You're telling me that I should trust that there are IGATEs in the area and 
they are going to get my data where it needs to be. That's simply not the
case. The IS was added AFTER the APRS network was devised. APRS is meant
to be self supporting WITHOUT the IS, the IS is merely a transport layer.

Internet should NOT be a REQUIREMENT for a tactical radio network. If it's
there, then great, but even as the APRS network is now, it is NOT a 
requirement to have an IGATE.

>I still dont understand why you need a backbone for LOCAL APRS coverage. 
>What are you backboning to????? A LOCAL backbone is a DIGI!

I respectfully disagree.

---Droo, K1XVM 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobil es. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <kf4otn@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:18:20 -0400
X-Message-Number: 81

Okay Danny... Yes, I live in the what-if world. That is what I get paid to
do, to plan for the what-ifs. If your fire department only has one
repeater, that's too bad. In my county we have dual sites on opposite ends
of the county. Our 911 communications office can use ANY radio resource in
the county or city. Oh, BTW, we also have two other sites that can be used
for 911... Why? Because WHAT IF the building caught fire?

Well, going on your analogy, if all my digis went down (along with my
backbone), then I wouldn't be able to get to any of my I-Gate sites anyway
unless I was within a few miles. So your plan still falls through. Unless,
that is, that you are going to put I-Gates EVERYWHERE... Which I don't have
a problem with, BTW. BUT, I really like the idea of having a multipurpose
Backbone. I can put some much stuff down that pipe and connect it to the
internet in various locations to provide redundant links. By the way, if
one of my backbone sites went down, I would have an alt path available to
send the traffic down.

BTW, I like your idea for HF... Everyone needs HF...

73s,
Eric KF4OTN
kf4otn@amsat.org

---

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