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To  : APRDIG@WW

TAPR APRS Special Interest Group Digest for Wednesday, June 16, 2004.

1. RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS
radio2. RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
3. Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles.
was: Kenwood APRS radio
4. RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
5. RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS
radio6. RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was:
Kenwood APRS radio
7. Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles.
was: Kenwood APRS radio
8. RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
9. 9.6k Baud for APRS
10. Re[2]: RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was:
Kenwood APRS radio
11. PSK31 APRS
12. Kenwood blah blah blah
13. Re[2]: Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
14. Re: PSK31 APRS
15. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
16. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
17. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
18. Re[2]: Kenwood blah blah blah
19. Let me TRY to clear this up.. (Proposal for: What about the 1.25m band?)
20. Re: Re[2]: Kenwood blah blah blah
21. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
22. Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
23. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
24. What have you accomplished ?
25. Re: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
26. Re: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
27. Re: Re[4]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
28. Re: Re[6]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS autom obiles. was:
Kenwood APRS radio
29. Parallel Network
30. Re: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
31. Re: What have you accomplished ?
32. Re: Re[4]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
33. Re: What have you accomplished ?
34. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
35. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
36. Re: Parallel Network
37. Re: What have you accomplished ?
38. Re: What have you accomplished ?
39. Re: What have you accomplished ?
40. Re: PSK31 APRS
41. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
42. Re: What have you accomplished ?
43. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
44. Re: What have you accomplished ?
45. Re: What have you accomplished ?
46. Re: PSK31 APRS
47. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
48. Re: 9.6k Baud for APRS
49. APRS-IS vs RF backbones
50. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
51. Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
52. Re: PSK31 APRS
53. RE: Trains, planes and APRS autom obiles.
54. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
55. Re: Kenwood blah blah blah
56. 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
57. Re: 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
58. Re: 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
59. Re: 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
60. Re: 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
61. Re: 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
62. Re: 2 M Heathkit Model HW-30 "The TWOER"
63. APRSWorld
64. Re: APRSWorld
65. Re: APRS-IS vs RF backbones
66. Re: APRS-IS vs RF backbones

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:50:39 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1


Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 7:55:18 PM, you wrote:

EHC> So Danny,
EHC> You aren't putting all your eggs in one basket??? So if a major fiber line
EHC> is cut and all data flowing from your area stops (and by area I mean
EHC> hundreds of square miles) you are just going to bump all of your stations
upEHC> to WIDE7-7 and hope to get into an I-Gate and hope that the traffic can
find
EHC> its' way back to you... right? Hmmm, they can't cut my RF Backbone...
EHC> Hmmm, I would typically have equipment that I can put in as a backup incase
EHC> of a failure... Hmmm, I wouldn't have to wait for someone else to fix my
EHC> problems... Hmmm, I wouldn't be asking anyone to tie up their phone line
EHC> for the internet...

Again, this is "My disaster is better than yours".

My disaster just took out all your digis which were colocated with your
backbones.. Now what?

EHC> Funny to say this, but when Nextel came out with their special "radios" for
EHC> law enforcement (and public safety) they made it very clear that their
EHC> product should NOT be used as a primary means for their officers to talk.
EHC> Why? Because it is better that they handle their own communications network
EHC> incase Nextel goes down and they don't have the man power to get it back
up.EHC> So why use Nextel??? Because it is a backup just like the APRS-IS. But
EHC> hey, I've only been in emergency services for ten years, you do what you
EHC> want with your area... Hope you live where there aren't any disasters or
EHC> folks digging around with backhoes... :D

Ive been in emergency communications for 12 years, been in broadcasting for
12 years, and yadda, yadda, yadda.. So?

The same can also be said of any trunking system.. Its doesnt get more
fragile than that.. One of your famous "Fiber cuts" happens or you lose 1
microwave site, and bam, you just lost a third or a quarter or some
percentage of your system. So why do we use it? Same reason my fire
department has ONE repeater site. If you expected everything to go down all
the time, you would end up in a basement with flashlights all your lives.

Like I said, nothing wrong with planning disasters, but this thread is
turning into paranoia and lots of what ifs.

What if someone sets off a nuclear bomb and kills everyone.. does it matter
if the digis are 1200 baud?

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
From: Drew Baxter <droobie@maine.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:31:56 -0400
X-Message-Number: 2

My interest in the multipurpose backbone is mostly because having these 
multiple projects going on on multiple frequencies sounds like a bear. I'd
have a certain appreciation for a spread spectrum data network that 
encompassed everything from video through pieces of APRS backbone and maybe 
some lightweight TCP-IP. If we're going to lose the 1.25m spectrum anyway,
we might as well try to devise a use for it.. This would also allow 
in-the-field mobiles to potentially be part of the mix if needed too 
(because 1.25m propagates similar to 2m). We have a lot of digital
hardware that wasn't available to us when packet came out.. I think it's a
good idea to discuss-explore at the very least.

Danny doesn't seem to realize that I'm not against having Internet traffic 
for LONG distances.. But we're talking at a regional or a state level, 
where you want to get things from one end of the state to another. I'm not
against using the Internet as a means to traffic further than a reasonable 
radio network can be used. I am, however, against using the Internet as a
means to bridge local resources. Because, after all, our state resources
for telecom come through the same place. That means if the switching
station goes down (burns up, etc.), then NOONE has Internet, thus the 
network is broken. To diffuse the "Well these people can still connect to
one another via the net BEHIND the break", most dial-up carriers use an 
authentication server that's located in another state here. If you call
into the net and you can't get out, then you can't auth to get connected 
eiither.

There's something to be said for a network that has fewer pieces. If not
the local ISP losing power or blowing hardware, there's always anything 
along the way between you and where you want to be. The Internet is not as
redundant as Danny seems to think it is. There is still a definitive
path. Even with routing technologies that let you change that path, you're
still talking some time before the router realizes it. If I recall it can
be as much as 8 minutes. In a Real-time network, that's quite a delay.

I would like to be able to be at one end of the state and be able to put up 
a portable DIGI that relays into the high speed network and instantly be 
able to capture traffic. Here in Maine, there is MANY places that have no
access and if someone were to aim a directional in the area of a far away 
DIGI, it would saturate the network. Once someone drives toward the
Northwest of the state, they're off the radar.

I also think people would be more willing to provide footprint space on 
their towers and homes in favor of a multipurpose network. People that
have no interest in APRS. There would be something for everyone.

Again, I'm not against the IS. I'm just of the belief of what I was told,
which is that the APRS network is supposed to be LOCAL, and the IS is just 
a secondary layer that exists for the purposes of capturing and routing 
traffic when it is available. As far as I know, we're not supposed to rely
on the IS because there may be no IGATE in the area served. In a local
tactical situation, we may not want the Internet involved at all.

Adding Igates would increase the number of machines on the 1200bps 144.39 
network and would really just add to the problem, not fix it. If there
were an established LOCAL backbone, then we could combine the traffic from 
multiple regions of the state, as well as filter it in such a way that when 
it goes back into the 1200bps network, it does not have excessive paths and 
repeat, etc. There are a ton of home stations here and very few are
IGates, either because they don't have always-on Internet access, or they 
do not have an interest in being part of the IS. I respect the fact that
not every home station CAN or WILL be an Igate or a Digi. I also respect
the fact that we (like other states) have more mobile traffic than 
anything. The only mobiles that can be a digipeater are the Kenwoods, and
I think it's only Cross-band (2m <-> 70cm).

I don't really want to mess with the already working network, just wanted 
to express an idea to improve and expand the reach LOCAL resources as well 
as provide a platform to expand the interests in Amateur Radio as a whole.

--Droo, K1XVM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:36:31 -0400
X-Message-Number: 3

Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 10:53:34 PM, you wrote:

DB> At 10:43 PM 6/15/2004, Danny wrote:
>>So, no one uses UI-View or WinAPRS connected to APRS-IS? Have you ever
>>been on APRS-IS before? Really?

DB> If they do, they cannot gate traffic out to the RF. You cannot originate
DB> traffic on the IS and gate to the RF.

Ummm.. Since when? You need to check on this. This is just untrue.

DB> You're telling me that I should trust that there are IGATEs in the area and
DB> they are going to get my data where it needs to be. That's simply not the
DB> case. The IS was added AFTER the APRS network was devised. APRS is meant
DB> to be self supporting WITHOUT the IS, the IS is merely a transport layer.

I dont understand the relevance of it being added later. Backbones will be
coming AFTER APRS was devised, but you seem to think they will solve the
worlds problems.

DB> Internet should NOT be a REQUIREMENT for a tactical radio network. If it's
DB> there, then great, but even as the APRS network is now, it is NOT a
DB> requirement to have an IGATE.

>>I still dont understand why you need a backbone for LOCAL APRS coverage.
>>What are you backboning to????? A LOCAL backbone is a DIGI!

DB> I respectfully disagree.

I was asking a question. You claim you need a LOCAL backbone.. What exactly
is a *LOCAL* backbone. If I add a 9600 baud 440 port to my digi, I have
just created a LOCAL backbone.. Now what?

There is nothing to disagree about here. In your terms, a backbone is the
simple DIGI in your area. The DIGI connects everyone in your LOCAL area
together, which is what you told me you want from a backbone.

Do you really know what a backbone is? I think maybe you need to define it
before you start planning and wishing for one.

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was:
Kenwood APRS radio
From: "Wilson G. Hein" <wilson.hein@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:42:21 -0400
X-Message-Number: 4

Gentle People,

1. If anything can happen during a disaster, it will. Murphy is always
lurking too... And no matter how much planning and preparation, there will
be foulups.

2. Post disaster the major concern is within the box. Who, and what has
survivied. Initially those in the box don't care who's outside. Only after
assesment will those responsible in the box want to reach those outside.

3. In a truely devistating situation, chances are the pressing issue will be
to get voice communications established, first within municipalities, and
later to say county or parish. On the next level there will be relays to
state level, and on to possibly other states, etc. And I'm sure most of
these plans are in place.

4 APRS could be one tool to be used during assesment, however the needs are
not to gate it to the IS. It's needs are local....

5 Chances are 100% loss of infrastructure will not be lost. However with NO
amateur radio infrastructure predisaster there is nothing to recover. The
amateur world isn't just APRS. There will be needs for moving some volume of
static data, shelter occupants, recovery volunteers, paid personel,
blankets, food, water etc. yada yada:P

I guess what I'm trying to say is it would be in everyones best interest to
work towards a better, faster, amateur digital community. It was a real need
10 plus years ago, and was implemented in some regions. What's left of it I
could only speculate, and it's not looking pretty.

And to be honest this may be trurly off topic with the exception that it
could also serve as a benefit to APRS as is IS, and maybe a new list if
there is not one that exists where those that are interested in developing a
local, regional, or nationwide hi-speed backbones.

And I won't mention my 30 years in public service yada yada yada.

Lets get some of these hams off there lazy internet buts and get them back
on the digital airwaves...

73,

Wilson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was: Kenwood
APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:42:14 -0400
X-Message-Number: 5

But what if BOTH your 911 centers burn down in the disaster?

What if BOTH your backbone links die?

We can go on forever. My point is, your disaster can put me a unreasonable
distance from the internet and my disaster can take out ALL of your
communication. This has gone from a technical discussion to a p*ssing
contest.

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was:
Kenwood APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:15:59 -0400
X-Message-Number: 6

WGH> Lets get some of these hams off there lazy internet buts and get them back
WGH> on the digital airwaves...

That sums it up right there...

Lets not enbrace the internet, lets build a parallel network to SPITE it,
ignoring that it even exists.

Thats one of the biggest problems with amateur radio today. Instead of
embracing new technologies, we thumb our nose at them at shun them.

The heck with all this packet cr*p, when it REALLY counts, CW is the only
thing that will get through.

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Drew Baxter <droobie@maine.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:24:18 -0400
X-Message-Number: 7

At 12:36 AM 6/16/2004, Danny wrote:
>DB> If they do, they cannot gate traffic out to the RF. You cannot originate
>DB> traffic on the IS and gate to the RF.
>
>Ummm.. Since when? You need to check on this. This is just untrue.

I use Xastir for my IGATE and it does not allow you to originate traffic on 
the IS and send it out the RF unless you hack it to do so.. By default, 
traffic in the IS is not supposed to gate, purely because this means 
someone could stupidly dump the weather spotters or Firenet to the RF 
network.

I was told that you cannot originate traffic on the IS and send it out to 
RF. The only exception to this is the NWS weather alerts, and you have to
DEFINE for that traffic to gate. Here I gate CAR* and GYX*. I also added
the call of a local HAM who wants an APRS-IS only station so he can use the 
radio for a Satellite bridge.

Also, if I message to KB1IKN who is in IA right now, then it has to come in 
from RF and he has to have beaconed recently and heard by the Igate in 
order for the message to go through the IS to the RF to get to him. This
is the impression I have always been under anyway based on things I have read.

>I dont understand the relevance of it being added later. Backbones will
>be coming AFTER APRS was devised, but you seem to think they will solve 
>the worlds problems.

The IS is not supposed to be the supporting structure for a LOCAL real-time 
tactical network. The IS is an optional component to help link FAR AWAY
regions together. Things within my state are not what I'd call FAR away.

>I was asking a question. You claim you need a LOCAL backbone.. What
>exactly is a *LOCAL* backbone. If I add a 9600 baud 440 port to my digi,
>I have just created a LOCAL backbone.. Now what?

Not really, you're just spewing mindless traffic out there. Backbone has
multiple interconnected points. When I say LOCAL I mean a lot bigger than
you do.. LOCAL for me is my state of 1 million people, not my city. There
is no incentive to put a 440 9k6 DIGI online if noone will use it.

http://celeris.svr.1-x.net:8080/xastir-12.jpg shows pretty accurately where 
our DIGIs are in the area, most of them have PHG circles (green). Note
that WESTERN MAINE is not covered at all, and that NORTH of KA1EKS-8 (which 
is located around Lincoln Maine) is the northernmost point. There's
another 3 hours to go up the state to get to the northernmost 
point. There's NOTHING there now for infrastructure even though Northern
Maine (Aroostook County) most definitely has people and HAM operators.

>There is nothing to disagree about here. In your terms, a backbone is the
>simple DIGI in your area. The DIGI connects everyone in your LOCAL area
>together, which is what you told me you want from a backbone.
>
>Do you really know what a backbone is? I think maybe you need to define
>it before you start planning and wishing for one.

A backbone is not a DIGI in my area because a DIGI serves as a DIGI and 
only repeats AX.25 packets. What I am proposing is an entirely separate
layer to link multiple clusters of resources together in a LOCAL 
(State-wide) fashion. I'm proposing a state-wide 220mhz spread spectrum
high-speed backbone for multi-use for a variety of digital resources such 
as video, repeater netting and maybe even some special event Internet 
traffic. This would serve as a transport for MANY digital needs, NOT APRS
but could be used as a means to transport clustered APRS traffic from 
regions to encompass all traffic in the state.

If K1XVM-7 is sitting in the middle of the forest, and has ONLY an IGATE 
within earshot of him, the Internet will hear him but NONE of the RF 
Network will! This means that someone that's further away than I can send
traffic locally WILL NEVER KNOW I'M THERE. If you're 30 miles away and the
IGATE is 25 miles away and barely hears me, then you won't hear me at 
all. If your IGATE also acts as a DIGI, and the nearest on-network DIGI is
50 miles away, it'll never repeat into the RF Network because it doesn't 
hear me either. This means my position is VOID except for people looking
on FINDU or connected to the IS directly.

Danny, have you ever actually used APRS? Do you even realize what I'm
proposing here? I told you several times so far, that this goes BEYOND
APRS and defines an idea for a multi-use digital communications backbone 
that would NOT rely on the Internet. This is Amateur Radio, not Amateur
Internet. I'm not against including the Internet in the mix, but your
suggestion of relying on the Internet as a transport means for a
LOCAL-weighted tactical real-time radio network leads me to believe you 
might be better off with a blackberry or a cell phone.

This is Amateur Radio, not Amateur Internet. We control the infrastructure
here.

--Droo, K1XVM 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles. was:
Kenwood APRS radio
From: "Wilson G. Hein" <wilson.hein@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:25:53 -0400
X-Message-Number: 8

Then why are you a ham? If all you want to do is sit on the net? I've been
in IS industry for years. I love the internet!. But in a disaster it's gonna
be gone for x amount of time. We as hams could/can help bridge the gap when
disaster strikes. But with no infrastructure we have NOTHING to offer
anyone. And with your attitude we never will.

That's all from me on the subject.

Wilson

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Danny [mailto:danny@messano.net]
>
>WGH> Lets get some of these hams off there lazy internet buts and
>get them back
>WGH> on the digital airwaves...
>
>That sums it up right there...
>
>Lets not enbrace the internet, lets build a parallel network to
>SPITE it, ignoring that it even exists.
>
>Thats one of the biggest problems with amateur radio today.
>Instead of embracing new technologies, we thumb our nose at them
>at shun them.
>
>The heck with all this packet cr*p, when it REALLY counts, CW is
>the only thing that will get through.
>
>Danny
>KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 9.6k Baud for APRS
From: "ROBERT M KING" <krm6@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:31:40 -0700
X-Message-Number: 9

I am reading with some interest all the comments on the APRS sig about 9.6k 
Baud.

Don't believe all you read.

I have been using 9.6K Baud on 440.875Mhz APRS for a year now.

I have run fixed station, mobile, and low power trackers (1 to 5 watts).

In every case the performance has been equal or better than 144.390 1200 
Baud operations.

I have copied 9.6K baud signals from the Queen Anne DIGI (6 watts to a 6db 
antenna INSIDE the attic of the old John Hay school) at 13 miles 
non-line-of-sight. This was while I was mobile. The S-meter was not even 
registering on the Kenwood D700A.

I copy APRS signals from the Skagit Valley DIGI (N7RIG-10) at my home 
station in Seattle regularly. This is a distance of about 55 miles.

The TNC's are the TNC2MULTI using UiDigi, and the Kantronics 9612 Plus. 
Transmitters are the Kenwood IC-207 and IC-208H and a German 6watt 
transceiver. The DF2FQ TF7 is an excellent 70cm transceiver.

The D700A has a fixed 200 millisecond TXD. Even so, the packets are
significantly shorter. The performance of the D700 has been excellent while
I have been mobiling all around the hilly environs of Puget Sound.

I set up the UHF 9.6K Baud system just to test the performance of the "real 
world" effects on it. I thought that the performance would not be nearly as
good as the VHF system. That is NOT how things have turned out. I believe
the main advantage is the shorter packets at 9.6K Baud. There is less time
for multi-path and other flutter effects to mangle the packets.

Try it yourself. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Bob King
K7OFT
krm6@msn.com 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re[2]: RE:[1] RE: Re[2]: Re[4]: Trains, planes and APRS automobiles.
was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:39:04 -0400
X-Message-Number: 10

Well, the problem I have is the ALL Or NOTHING attitude.

In a real disaster, what will count is how we patch together what is left..
which will never happen if we sit here and predetermine what is REAL ham
radio, and what is "that darn internet" and so on.

If I can get my local net patched into APRS-IS for real time worldwide
messaging, I am going to do it. If its down, I will find another way. I am
NOT going to sit back, cross my arms, and say "thats not ham radio.. I am a
HAM RADIO OPERATOR.. I refuse to use that"

When it comes down to it, it's not HOW it gets there, it's that it DOES. I
for one plan to use what is available. If I am not a "True Ham" because I
didnt do it all with Ham Radio, then so be it. Id rather save lives than be
a "Real Ham" then.

Danny
KE4RAP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: PSK31 APRS
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@3xf.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:07:14 -0700
X-Message-Number: 11

Tired of all the talk of 9.6k+ APRS? Want something a little more
leisurely? Check this out:

http://n1vg.net/opentracker/images/psk31-aprs.gif

This signal was generated with a standard, unmodified OpenTracker using a
new firmware version I've been working on. At the moment, the callsign is
hard-coded because in the config program it's saved in AX.25 format. Once I
get that fixed, the code will be available for download. OpenTRAC features
won't work because the PSK31 varicode alphabet is only 7 bits. Other than
that, and at least for now the lack of a path, the rest of the functionality
is the same, including telemetry.

Modulation is 31.25 bps BPSK. Sorry, no QPSK. The garbage between lines is
the program trying to extract data from background noise between
transmissions.

Not sure if this is of any immediate use to anyone, but it's kind of cool.
And a bit of a learning experience to implement. Though the lesson about
the obscure compiler bug subtly corrupting my varicode table I could have
done without.

Scott
N1VG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Kenwood blah blah blah
From: James Smith <k9apr@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:08:33 -0500
X-Message-Number: 12

Well you might want to get studying CW then huh? Since you opened the 
door..........

-.- ----. .- .--. .-.

>CW is the only thing that will get through.

>Danny
>KE4RAP

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Subject: Re[2]: Re: Re[5]: Re[2]: Re[2]: Re: Re[2]: Re: Trains, planes and APRS
automobiles. was: Kenwood APRS radio
From: Danny <danny@messano.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:14:41 -0400
X-Message-Number: 13

DB> I use Xastir for my IGATE and it does not allow you to originate traffic on
DB> the IS and send it out the RF unless you hack it to do so.. By default,
DB> traffic in the IS is not supposed to gate, purely because this means
DB> someone could stupidly dump the weather spotters or Firenet to the RF
DB> network.

Right.. You selectively gate traffic from IS to RF.. You said it couldnt be
done, which is why I am confused by....

DB> I was told that you cannot originate traffic on the IS and send it out to
DB> RF. The only exception to this is the NWS weather alerts, and you have to
DB> DEFINE for that traffic to gate. Here I gate CAR* and GYX*. I also added
DB> the call of a local HAM who wants an APRS-IS only station so he can use the
DB> radio for a Satellite bridge.

Ive never heard such a thing. I originate traffic ALL the time on APRS-IS
and gate it to RF. 2 of my computers here dont even touch a TNC, but my
IGATE puts them on RF from APRS-IS.

I think you are thinking about putting non-hams on RF.. Who said anything
about NON-hams?

DB> The IS is not supposed to be the supporting structure for a LOCAL real-time
DB> tactical network. The IS is an optional component to help link FAR AWAY
DB> regions together. Things within my state are not what I'd call FAR away.

The IS is whatever you want it to be. Yet another close minded argument
about what is and what isn't.

If I want to link together my regions LANs with APRS, why cant I? Who are
you or anyone else to tell me I cant do it? There are no RULES or "supposed
to's".

>>I was asking a question. You claim you need a LOCAL backbone.. What
>>exactly is a *LOCAL* backbone. If I add a 9600 baud 440 port to my digi,
>>I have just created a LOCAL backbone.. Now what?

DB> Not really, you're just spewing mindless traffic out there. Backbone has
DB> multiple interconnected points. When I say LOCAL I mean a lot bigger than
DB> you do.. LOCAL for me is my state of 1 million people, not my city. There
DB> is no incentive to put a 440 9k6 DIGI online if noone will use it.

Which is why I dont understand shunning APRS-IS.. You say APRS-IS isnt
meant to service a LOCAL area. Well, now you tell me you would be servicing
an entire state. Thats hardly local. If your local service area is now
being redefined as statewide, why not use APRS-IS to tie it all together?

DB> http://celeris.svr.1-x.net:8080/xastir-12.jpg shows pretty accurately where
DB> our DIGIs are in the area, most of them have PHG circles (green). Note
DB> that WESTERN MAINE is not covered at all, and that NORTH of KA1EKS-8 (which
DB> is located around Lincoln Maine) is the northernmost point. There's
DB> another 3 hours to go up the state to get to the northernmost 
DB> point. There's NOTHING there now for infrastructure even though Northern
DB> Maine (Aroostook County) most definitely has people and HAM operators.

Well, if you still dont have enough user ports to cover the state, why are
you so intent on building a backbone for nothing?

DB> A backbone is not a DIGI in my area because a DIGI serves as a DIGI and
DB> only repeats AX.25 packets. What I am proposing is an entirely separate
DB> layer to link multiple clusters of resources together in a LOCAL 
DB> (State-wide) fashion. I'm proposing a state-wide 220mhz spread spectrum
DB> high-speed backbone for multi-use for a variety of digital resources such
DB> as video, repeater netting and maybe even some special event Internet
DB> traffic. This would serve as a transport for MANY digital needs, NOT APRS
DB> but could be used as a means to transport clustered APRS traffic from
DB> regions to encompass all traffic in the state.

Like I commented on an earlier post. We started off talking about using
APRS-IS as a backbone instead of RF backbones.. We drifted into a
reliabilty discussion, and now we are really not talking about APRS at
all.. Next you will tell me that APRS-IS wont cover your voice over IP
needs.. NO KIDDING!

DB> If K1XVM-7 is sitting in the middle of the forest, and has ONLY an IGATE
DB> within earshot of him, the Internet will hear him but NONE of the RF
DB> Network will! T

The idea was to use an IGATE to supplement your DIGI.. not "all you need is
an IGATE, forget the DIGIS.."

Your backbone will hardly work if its sitting 20 feet above the ground at a
users house in the middle of nowhere too..

his means that someone that's further away than I can send
DB> traffic locally WILL NEVER KNOW I'M THERE. If you're 30 miles away and the
DB> IGATE is 25 miles away and barely hears me, then you won't hear me at
DB> all. If your IGATE also acts as a DIGI, and the nearest on-network DIGI is
DB> 50 miles away, it'll never repeat into the RF Network because it doesn't
DB> hear me either. This means my position is VOID except for people looking
DB> on FINDU or connected to the IS directly.

Once again, I never said we need nothing but IGATES. I just dont see how an
RF backbone is goint to be that much better than using APRS-IS for a
backbone.

DB> Danny, have you ever actually used APRS? Do you even realize what I'm
DB> proposing here?

Yes, I have.. Thanks :)

Yes, I do realize what you are proposing here.. Its not APRS. Like I said,
if you want BBS, Voice over IP, access to your ISP e-mail, and all that,
you are not talking about APRS anymore. APRS-IS wont do that, because,
ODDLY enough, *ITS APRS*!

I told you several times so far, that this goes BEYOND
DB> APRS and defines an idea for a multi-use digital communications backbone
DB> that would NOT rely on the Internet. This is Amateur Radio, not Amateur
DB> Internet. I'm not against including the Internet in the mix, but your
DB> suggestion of relying on the Internet as a transport means for a
DB> LOCAL-weighted tactical real-time radio network leads me to believe you
DB> might be better off with a blackberry or a cell phone.

Heres what I am missing.

My argument.. Lets use APRS-IS as a backbone instead of RF. Surely you can
get to an IGATE within one or two hops during an emergency.

You say.. The internet will fail, that wont work.. We need an RF backbone.
But I also want it connected to the internet.. But if its RF, it wont fail
during an emergency.. Is that right?

Just how far away are you planning your connection to the internet? I mean,
if my hopping a couple digis to get traffic out of an area and to an IGATE
wont work, because there wont be any internet for x number of miles from
ground zero, just how far out must we go with our backbone for it to be
"safe".

Do we run the backbone down to south carolina, where the weather is much
warmer, and the snow melts faster, then connect it to the net?

I really think we are talking about at LEAST 3 different things here.

DB> This is Amateur Radio, not Amateur Internet. We control the infrastructure
DB> here.

What infrastructure? Thats the point. APRS-IS, your local DIGIS, and the
internet exist already.. Where is your backbone.. If its so much better
than relying on IGATES and APRS-IS, then build it!

Obviously you know MUCH more than me because I apparently have never used
APRS, and am clueless about emergency comms, etc etc.. So do it, and show
my how dumb I am!

Danny
KE4RAP

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